Curse

reetkever · Aug 07, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

no you are flat out wrong on that.

the time you play a week is not a factor in being casual or not.

casual is not taking the game overly seriously and simply playing for fun not i have to get this title/rank/goal/etc

someone may be a truly dedicated GW fanatic but real life limits him/her to maybe 10 hours a week. if real life permitted that person would happily spend 12 hours a day .

this person is time limited but certainly not casual toward the game

casual is a state of mind not someting you can punch in with a time clock and go DING this person is one hour into hardcore

Your view of casual players is wrong, too.

In your view, causal players are:

-Mindless: they all want one thing, and that is to play the storyline.
-Will-less: They don't want anything except the storyline, they have no other goals, wishes or whatever.
-Clones: There are no exeptions, and if there are, these exeptions are without an excuse, a hardcore farmer.

Let's play Drone Wars, yay! We all do the same things, like the same things, want the same things. W00t! -.-

And the funny thing is, THESE 'CASUAL PLAYERS' AREN'T EVEN PLAYING THE WHOLE GAME. How can you 'play the game correctly' when you do nothing except the storyline?

A-Net most certainly did NOT think: 'Ohh, let's put chests in the game, but players are not supposed to use them.'

'Let's make thousands of skills, but make it impossible for players to obtain them, unless they go PvP'

Loviatar · Aug 07, 2007, 11:03 PM // 23:03

[QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Your view of casual players is wrong, too.

In your view, causal players are:

-Mindless: they all want one thing, and that is to play the storyline.
-Will-less: They don't want anything except the storyline, they have no other goals, wishes or whatever.-Clones: There are no exeptions, and if there are, these exeptions are without an excuse, a hardcore farmer.

lets clear a little of your BS up.

the first time through the game and maybe even the second time were you playing the game by doing the missions/quests/exploring all that beautiful areas?

or were you already looking for that farming spot and getting your 15k armor the first time through?

Quote:

And the funny thing is, THESE 'CASUAL PLAYERS' AREN'T EVEN PLAYING THE WHOLE GAME. How can you 'play the game correctly' when you do nothing except the storyline?

see above about starting character not your 15 TH time through

Quote:

'Let's make thousands of skills, but make it impossible for players to obtain them, unless they go PvP'

again a first time or second through player is not needing more than a relatively small number of skills and someone on their 5/10 15 th character is not by any definiton casual

reetkever · Aug 08, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

[QUOTE=Loviatar]

Quote:

lets clear a little of your BS up.

the first time through the game and maybe even the second time were you playing the game by doing the missions/quests/exploring all that beautiful areas?

or were you already looking for that farming spot and getting your 15k armor the first time through?

I was playing through the game, while needing to farm cause I bought every single better armor when possible.

Furthermore, I was looking up against other players in the guild with the beautiful armors dyed black, and drooled over it, thinking that after a while, me too could wear that. Also, I was often in Droknar to look at cool weapon skins, and I often interrupted my storyline for doing stuff like killing a Bone Dragon, Sorrow's Furnace, trying builds with guildies, farming etc.

Storyline was not at all the only thing I did. I had wishes and goals, too, when I started the game.

Oh and btw, exploring is 'hardcore' in your eyes, too, since it's working on a title, and doesn't have anything to do with the storyline. It's not needed, either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

see above about starting character not your 15 TH time through

Yeah, the first time, you should do everything. You should take your time and do stuff other than the storyline. Make builds to that you can finally kill that big Boss you had trouble with. Buy other skills so you can finally get pass that mission. Farm some monsters so you can buy the new armor you wanted, and upgrade it with runes. Experiment with Dye colours, and how they mix. Exploring and walking back to the spots the missions made you skip. Finding weird spots where you died, and have to come back prepared etc... (I was like 'whoa' when I came to that place with 5 Bone Dragons... Great times...)

There's no reason why anyone should be rushing through the storyline, without thinking about, or doing all the other great stuff in the game. You gotta find fun stuff to do, be free, enjoy everything the game has to offer - find what floats your boat, and be able to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

again a first time or second through player is not needing more than a relatively small number of skills

That's strange, my ranger needed at LEAST 5 different builds throughout the storyline. You can't expect me to beat the game with a pet and Power Shot, do you? A Monk using Healing Breeze? Hammer Warriors? First of all, you won't be affective, second of all, other people will not accept you in the team with uneffective builds, and third of all, these days we HAVE to alter our builds, because skill effects get changed again and again.

And NEEDING isn't the same as WANTING. There are Skill Trainers at alot of spots, and when you come to that new town, you wanna check which new skills can be obtained. You're like 'WOW!' when you see this killer skill at the trainer, and want to buy it, just to find out it sucks in reality. This is called experimenting with builds.

When I was going through Guild Wars for the first time, the first 2 things I checked for in a new outpost were Armor and Skill NPC's.

Although I can imagine today's 'casual player' just copies a build off wiki instead of trying to make something theirselves, and don't even know all the other builds and skills out there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

and someone on their 5/10 15 th character is not by any definiton casual

That's funny, cause a few posts back, you clearly said:

'the time you play a week is not a factor in being casual or not.'

And:

'casual is a state of mind not someting you can punch in with a time clock and go DING this person is one hour into hardcore'

Amounts of characters through the game = time invested in the game

Or do you now say that all casual players should be playing on 1 character only, somehow be able to spend alot of time playing on this one, but can NOT do anything except the storyline?

cellardweller · Aug 08, 2007, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

For me, loot scaling has been OK - without the introduction of HM it would have been a small loss but not too much. With HM I have found a general increase in GPH. For those below me the field looks even better - the more below me the better. I generally consider myself borderline - I play about .5-2 hours a day yet use some of the more "hardcore" builds. If I were married to my old farming runs then, yes, I would be poor. However as I have said many times Vermin weren't farmed because they were fun, they were farmed because they were profitable. Once that no longer was true I moved to other spots. I fail to see why vermin (or whatever run) no longer being good has any relevance on the state of profitability in farming on GW. Same thing with a build - there are quite a few HIGHLY profitable non-hardcore builds/runs in the farming section, some guides even WAY more detailed than I would ever bother with. Any casual player could *easily* follow them, many are even very low in price for speccing out the build no matter what skills/items you have.

I can tell you that the reason that I farmed vermin (and similar runs) were not because they were profitable, if profit were the sole driver then runs with more gph like titan gems or green farms would have been done. Vermin/Minos/Trolls/Spiders etc were farmed by casual players because they were casual friendly. Namingly:

A run takes less than 10 minutes - If the run takes longer than that, you need to sacrifice a night's play to farm.
You can use any one of thousands combinations of classes and skills to do it - there was no mindless grind because every run was different
You could do it alone - when your friends are online, the last thing you want to do is waste time farming.
They didnt' rely on player to player trade - Trading takes way more time than a casual player has available.

How many of the 10k/hr runs that you found could fall into this casual friendly category?

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Would this problem be solved if regular skill tomes drop of normal mode high-end enemies and bosses? Same drop rate as purple and gold items?
I know you have to unlock the skills on the account first, so it will require some investment (gold or time in PvP), but not as much as equipping several characters with the same skills.

It would go some of the way to solving the problem. A better solution would be an accross-the-board reduction in the price of essential fixed price items (weaponsmith items, 1k armour (or make armour salvage work like hero armour so that you don't need multiple sets), skills, tomes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I'm also wondering what game content you are talking about.
I can't think of none that require more than 8K to get going and make more profit (if it does not, why invest 8K?).

Content = things to do * ways to do them. Without forking out massive amounts of gold for skills, you're locked into a tiny fraction of the game content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

lets clear a little of your BS up.

the first time through the game and maybe even the second time were you playing the game by doing the missions/quests/exploring all that beautiful areas?

or were you already looking for that farming spot and getting your 15k armor the first time through?

The former. There is so much wonderful content in the game that it would take thousands of hours to experience it... unfortunately it costs way more platinum that you get through playing normally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

see above about starting character not your 15 TH time through

again a first time or second through player is not needing more than a relatively small number of skills and someone on their 5/10 15 th character is not by any definiton casual

Sorry Loviatar, but your definition of casual gets more ridiculous everyday. Now you're adding the stipulation can't be a casual player is someone who is content to mindless grind away at the same content over and over?

strcpy · Aug 08, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

How many of the 10k/hr runs that you found could fall into this casual friendly category?

The vast majority of them. Minos outside of Ice caves, Undead in Bergin Hot springs, Fahranur the first city, the six jade knights in the entrance of Wajjun Bazaar, and hydra outside Augury Rock to name a few. These all range in the 8-12k range depending on which builds I use - they are all VERY doable by a 55 monk, 55 necro, and a 130hp dervish. I've seen builds, but haven't used, for things like a VwK warrior and a few ele builds. So pretty much all the standard farming classes can do them.

As of right now the 55 monk is as casual friendly as it has ever been, the price is *well* within the purchasing power of anyone out there that saves a little. However the 55 necro and 130hp Dervish are both cheap and easy to use. The above runs just need to take a a few hours - at most - to learn the builds (and once learned they go anywhere), WAY less for the 55 monk (due to the +20% enchant weapon and blessed Aura most enchants last 50% longer and he Divine Favor bonus pretty much does all the extra healing you need). The 55's difficulty is in purchasing the dang thing, though that price has dropped tremendously - one run through the unlocked treasures in Elona will *more* than pay for one.

In fact, with the 55 monk it is easier than Vermin Farming - both to learn and once you are experienced in it. In fact, the undead around Bergin Hot Springs is the *easiest* farming I have ever done in the two years I have been playing. I make right around 10k/hour there, sometimes a little more if the gold items are dropping good. I, too, thought they would be difficult. I kick myself now for never using them (I purchased my first one about two weeks before Hard Mode was released) - things like a sliver armor or mist form ele, a warrior tank, or the other so called "casual builds" were MUCH more difficult to use - they were just cheap.

I'm not terribly good at the prot spirit builds - I still either get my butt handed too me in the UW/FOW or I can't figure out how to do enough damage. It's too expensive to learn and I make enough otherwise. By far the *hardest* run I do is the old dead sword farming and it is harder to freaking get there than do the farm. I average (based on my accounts age and hours played) about 1.5 hours a day and most of that is from weekends - so I am neither a wonder player or have tons of time. I still can't totally figure out why Shielding Hands and Shield of Absorption sometimes quit working (I know it has to do with the order they are cast, but it seems that sometimes the suddenly quit working and I haven't cast anything in 4 or 5 seconds and no enchants have stopped).

In fact, the majority of the gold I have in the bank and the things I have purchased are funded from questing and the unlocked treasure chests in Elona.

I too would like to see some thing lowered in price - I have always thought that skills were too expensive, personally I would rather up the EXP needed to 20k and make them free (it would be fine to still need to purchase cap sigs) - it is irritating to have skill points and have to choose between a piece of armor or another build. The other things - Keys and such - are not required and are money sinks so they are fine there.

cellardweller · Aug 08, 2007, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

The vast majority of them. Minos outside of Ice caves, Undead in Bergin Hot springs, Fahranur the first city, the six jade knights in the entrance of Wajjun Bazaar, and hydra outside Augury Rock to name a few. These all range in the 8-12k range depending on which builds I use - they are all VERY doable by a 55 monk, 55 necro, and a 130hp dervish. I've seen builds, but haven't used, for things like a VwK warrior and a few ele builds. So pretty much all the standard farming classes can do them.

I have done every one of the builds you mentioned and I can tell you from personal experince that none of them will gain you more then 5-600 gold in 10 minutes - not even enough for one skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

The other things - Keys and such - are not required and are money sinks so they are fine there.

Until they put a weapon mod trader into the game, keys are a necessity.

legacyofkain85 · Aug 08, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Some people say the game and the economy was better before nightfall well i say: farrming in DOA foundry for titan gems ,i only caught the time when they were 50k each and i did made 4 gems in a day without a strugle, so that might be translated to 200k per day ,i wonder where could u have goten this kind of cash before,because vermin farming or trolls dont even come close to this.

Almost forgot i also atm colect al mi free treasures the ones scatered trough nightfall u can get 15 k per char ,so doing it with 10 chars would be 150k which is doable more or less every month.

strcpy · Aug 08, 2007, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I have done every one of the builds you mentioned and I can tell you from personal experince that none of them will gain you more then 5-600 gold in 10 minutes - not even enough for one skill.

Then you are doing something wrong - I actually bothered to keep a record of total time spent (including ID'ing everything, selling to the merchant, zoning for the traders - basically the *whole* thing as a run) and the least profitable place was 5k/hour. I did so for several weeks of farming.

To some extent you are correct - it wasn't constant so a ten minute figure would usually not get 5-600 gold. But then, we are talking what you average over time so your metric matter litte. It would be *very* profitable if you had a 95% chance every 30 minutes of making 100k but all other runs make 0k - yet it would look horrid based on what your metric.

Over time, I had one really bad place (Hulking Stone, between 4-5k/hour) and one really good (Dead Sword - between 12-13k/hour) and the rest solidly in the 8-10k category. And, yes, I even bothered to move chest drops in a position that they didn't factor in and it was all merch food (I kept a few gold weapons, but not enough to skew anything).

For instance, Fahranur take somewhere between 28-35 minutes for a full run and I get anywhere from 2k up to about 6k. It, once again, averages out to a around 8k an hour - it is unusual to get less than 3.5k or over 4.5k a run yet it happens (runes sometimes get a nice large spike in there). Sometimes I also get bad strings where I get 2k/run for a fairly long while.

I had an occasional build that *really* sucked in one area (my 130hp Dervish made abysmal money farming Frost Minotaurs, I do not recall the amount) but another profession fixed that right up (55 necro in that area did in the lower 8k/hour range). All of them had a few areas that were in the 8-10k range.

As to why you do not - dunno. This is over quite a number of hours, enough so that I would have to be *really* lucky and am continuing to do so across multiple professions and locations. If you aren't making at least 4k/hour in HM you really need to be looking at your builds and your ability to run them, if you just can't quite get to the 8k/hour range then read the farming forums and try out different runs - all of mine I either got from there or someone else has already posted it.

Anet has server logs so they do not need to go by forum posts - they know if their target audience is making what they want and know if people are out there making more. There are MANY people making in the 8-10k/hour range farming and that has seemed to always be their target based on what gets nerfed and what doesn't. Therefore I have little confidence that "I can't make that much" will be "listened too" (or, more accurately, do what you want - a "no" is still listened too). There are too many of us who *have* bothered to keep some record of what we make per hour that make in that range for it to just be some type of grand ability or pure luck - I know that if I can do it others can too, I do not have any special skill that I can do in this game, in fact I normally tend towards the bottom of the field.

Of course, if you *can* get Anet to increase drops then I'm all for it - I always like making more gold. Read the above as helpful - you can make that gph rate also (and it still isn't that great compared to others).

cellardweller · Aug 08, 2007, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

...

I'm glad you were counting the merching, zoning and enchanting times. I'd assumed you were not and that was why your statistics were radically different to mine. I think you are discounting the importance of the per 10min statistic though.

Using myself as an example again. I'll log in knowing that I have an hour to play. Given that it takes 45-50 minutes to do most things I know that I have to make 1-2k in 10 minutes or I won't be able to afford the skill(s) to play with for that night. In a pre-lootscaling world, 1-2 runs of pretty much anything could have been done and you would have the gold to buy skills. HM farming doesn't guarntee this, it gives you a bigger opportunity for things like sup vigours, but it may very well leave you with 3 decayed orr emblems and 60gold. Even if you end up with a gold weapon or two, they only sell for 2-300 and theyre replacing 1k worth of pre-lootscaling whites.

the_jos · Aug 08, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Quote:

A better solution would be an accross-the-board reduction in the price of essential fixed price items (weaponsmith items, 1k armour (or make armour salvage work like hero armour so that you don't need multiple sets), skills, tomes).

Partly agree on weaponsmith items, there are some greens that are better and are cheaper on the player market, making getting a good weapon for reasonable price not that hard. There are collectors weapons that should be enough to get through the game.
Agree on the armor salvage, though I only switch headsets, except on my monk (one +e armor and one +armor armor) and necro (55 set for orders/BiP builds).
Skills are expensive, however:

Quote:

Content = things to do * ways to do them. Without forking out massive amounts of gold for skills, you're locked into a tiny fraction of the game content.

That would mean running every possible skillbar with every possible team setup. Not even considering multiple characters this would take ages.
When this is the sole reason for having all skills, that would indeed be a problem. However, since this would take ages, income would also be high, unless you want to test quick or with solo character.
When this is the case, pre-determining if a skill is worth is by looking at wiki description should seperate the good from the medicore skills.

One thing on income side in HM (full team).
I vanquished Snakes -> Lornar's with guild team yesterday.
Income of most of us was in 5-6K range, excluding some gold items that could be sold on player market. Most gold drops (also from chests) were pure merchant stuff.
We left tons of white items on the ground, even while most of us started with clear inventory. Take more salvage kits next time ....
However, income/hour was BAD, since we had a sub-optimal team build.
Even when we would have good builds, the hour/income would be not that good. Farming nets a lot more.
On the other hand, we had a lot of fun, so it was not that bad

Omniclasm · Aug 08, 2007, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Until they put a weapon mod trader into the game, keys are a necessity.

Just to clear this up, you can make it through the game without the extra 30 health and 33% longer bleeding. Trust me, all my heroes have finished the game with the first max damage weapon I found.

reetkever · Aug 08, 2007, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by legacyofkain85

Some people say the game and the economy was better before nightfall well i say: farrming in DOA foundry for titan gems ,i only caught the time when they were 50k each and i did made 4 gems in a day without a strugle, so that might be translated to 200k per day ,i wonder where could u have goten this kind of cash before,because vermin farming or trolls dont even come close to this.

Almost forgot i also atm colect al mi free treasures the ones scatered trough nightfall u can get 15 k per char ,so doing it with 10 chars would be 150k which is doable more or less every month.

This is about the casual players.

For hardcore farmers, the income is the same, if not better, than before. They can farm Titan Gems, ecto's, shards, gold weapons with huge prices etc, and don't see a difference cause of the exemption list. But the thing is: WITHOUT loot scaling, it wouldn't mean anything to you. The players who are having it good, get it better without loot scaling, and the players who are having it worse... also get it better without loot scaling.

However, casual players do not farm these things. It costs alot of time, preperation and it is fairly hard. (Sure, for you, it's easy, but to make the build yourself, test it out etc... it takes a long time).

While casual players don't LIKE to farm, but HAVE to. They HAVE to farm trolls, vermins or griffons, or else they have little to no cash, and can't do the stuff they want.

Ohh, and after opening the treasures about 3 times, they don't seem to reset at all... And if they do, they drop little to no gold coins, and a purple item worth 100 gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by omniclasm

Just to clear this up, you can make it through the game without the extra 30 health and 33% longer bleeding. Trust me, all my heroes have finished the game with the first max damage weapon I found.

Trust me, some people cannot. Some builds require certain mods, say, to keep that bleeding or poison up. For others, the 20% longer enchantment is needed. Health + 30 might not seem much when you are at full health, but if you are going against alot of Life Degeneration, you can use all the extra health you can get.

Also, where do you find max dmg weapons? Even in the final missions in Hard Mode, the monsters drop un-maxed weapons. Only purples and golds seem to be max damage, and these nearly don't drop. Ohh wait, if we can buy keys and open chests, that problem is solved, too! But only the hardcore farmer can get those...

Omniclasm · Aug 08, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

Trust me, some people cannot. Some builds require certain mods, say, to keep that bleeding or poison up. For others, the 20% longer enchantment is needed. Health + 30 might not seem much when you are at full health, but if you are going against alot of Life Degeneration, you can use all the extra health you can get.

Also, where do you find max dmg weapons? Even in the final missions in Hard Mode, the monsters drop un-maxed weapons. Only purples and golds seem to be max damage, and these nearly don't drop. Ohh wait, if we can buy keys and open chests, that problem is solved, too! But only the hardcore farmer can get those...

Few builds require a certain mod. Shock Warriors, and certain farming builds require special mods. Making bleeding or poison last 30 seconds isn't required when that foe will die in about 5-10 seconds. And that max 30 health mod won't keep you alive a whole lot longer than a 15 health mod that you found from a blue item. Under 10 degen like your argument, it will keep you alive for an extra 3/4 of a second.

And yes, you can find max, or near max weapons in any level 20 area. Granted, it might be req 12, but it will still be max. If you say that you cannot, you are again exaggerating to fit your argument. Not all weapons are max, you are right, but some are. Please don't use the "Well I'm unlucky and never find max weapons

". A sword with 20 damage will do just as well as a sword with max damage and 15>50. You might lose out on 5-6 damage, oh no.

As with loot scaling effecting casual players. Casual players play in full groups most of the time, so loot scaling doesn't effect their drops. Static priced items are the same, and their drops are the same. So saying that static cost items are harder to get is nonsense. It has made the fluctuating priced items become cheaper so that they are somewhat affordable.

How could of this not helped casuals? They get the same amount of gold, the static items are the same, the elastic items are cheaper. If anything, that helped them. Just because people can't farm for a set of 15k armor in 2 hours does not mean that casual players are screwed.

New players to the game, they will still think that solo farming is great. Solo farming gets more gold than playing in a team, so any new player will find it great.

Casual players can still play through the game, casual players can still get gold. Playing through the game with a full group still gives ya just as much gold as it always has. My first character, my Necromancer, managed to play through Prophecies, go to several UW trips with my guild, buy 15k armor, and have several builds to play. No solo farming at all. So playing in a full team gets you no gold? Come on.

blue.rellik · Aug 08, 2007, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by reetkever

This is about the casual players.
/snip

I would like to make a point concerning the term 'casual' player and 'hardcore' player being thrown around here. I did a game design unit in university last semester so I believe I have a resonable idea on how the mechanics behind game work (not saying I'm an expert).

A casual player is defined as someone who plays games to pass time. Someone who is bored and wants to kill some hours.

A hardcore player is someone who wants to complete the game as much as possible.

In the case of Guild Wars, a hardcore player is someone that tries to get all the titles, rare golds and FoW armour etc. In your case if you want the 15k armour then that means you've just stopped being a casual player, you're playing the game to achieve something, not to kill time.

Snow Bunny · Aug 08, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Yeah.

Let it be reiterated for the final time. Because, obviously the fine technical points are alluding those arguing against loot scaling.

Loot scaling does not affect full parties in a derogatory way whatsoever.
HARDCORE players [farmers] are affected in the same way casual players are because they get less loot. They just play more. They have to play a lot more to keep their wealth up.

Quote:

Also, where do you find max dmg weapons? Even in the final missions in Hard Mode, the monsters drop un-maxed weapons. Only purples and golds seem to be max damage, and these nearly don't drop. Ohh wait, if we can buy keys and open chests, that problem is solved, too! But only the hardcore farmer can get those...

Uh-huh. They do drop un-max weapons. They also drop max weapons. They drop both. And if you've played ANY Hardmode at all, you know that golds and purples drop with ease. It's the reason they aren't worth anything.

Quote:

Ohh, and after opening the treasures about 3 times, they don't seem to reset at all... And if they do, they drop little to no gold coins, and a purple item worth 100 gold

Complete BS. Show me a chest that offers you less than 1 plat. Maybe that one on Istan. I've opened the Kournan chests 5 times now. 1.3 at least each, with a reasonably nice gold item each time. Show me a screenie to prove your fallicious claim.

Quote:

Trust me, some people cannot. Some builds require certain mods, say, to keep that bleeding or poison up. For others, the 20% longer enchantment is needed. Health + 30 might not seem much when you are at full health, but if you are going against alot of Life Degeneration, you can use all the extra health you can get

.

20% Might be needed for 55 farmers and some enchantment heavy elite farming areas. But where else? Oh, and by the way, if you know this game, you'd know that Defense mods are much better and cheaper than fortitude. And +29 Health will hold up the same against degen as +30 would. Invalid argument.

Quote:

While casual players don't LIKE to farm, but HAVE to. They HAVE to farm trolls, vermins or griffons, or else they have little to no cash, and can't do the stuff they want.

This has always been the case, for everyone.

You haven't actually provided a persuasive argument as of yet.

Gli · Aug 08, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote: